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Offline wolfx

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« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2007, 05:38:17 pm »

So silly...what for keep the "thread hierachy" for. This is forum ler, not newsgroup. Zzzz



 


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Offline ayheng

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« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2007, 05:52:07 pm »
[quote user="jack208"]

ayheng: what was your "fundamental" mistake?? In the logging sheet or in the game itself?

[/quote]

its in the game itself

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« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2007, 06:03:34 pm »

[quote user="wolfx"]So silly...what for keep the "thread hierachy" for. This is forum ler, not newsgroup. Zzzz[/quote]



haha... my fren.. a forum and a newsgroup are essentially the same design, from both the technical design and database-structure perspective. It's only the usage that makes one call it a forum or newsgroup.



In fact, if u design a forum system without thread hierachy it meant you are not maintaining database integrity, one of the must-not-break rules of RDMS. But then a lot of PHP dudes are such undisciplined programmers.. in fact I won't call them programmers as they've not actually understood what "programming" is. They are actually "code writers" someone who put together a few programming codes.



This is the reason PHP systems break then when put under stress- or load-test as they lack the basic architecture to support those load. It's a bit like how our Boleh-land engineers built houses.... very fast, very cheap but undercut corners everywhere.... unlike EU where they need to conform to certain specifications/standards etc.

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Offline wolfx

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« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2007, 06:32:30 pm »
[quote user="jack208"]

[quote user="wolfx"]So silly...what for keep the "thread hierachy" for. This is forum ler, not newsgroup. Zzzz[/quote]



haha... my fren.. a forum and a newsgroup are essentially the same design, from both the technical design and database-structure perspective. It's only the usage that makes one call it a forum or newsgroup.



[/quote]



 



Buuu buuuu....wrong.



A forum can actually be hierachy based or chronologically based. But nowadays its all chronologically based.



Newsgroups were hierachy based because of Usenet. It kept track of threads and sub-threads and how 1 person replied to the other. This later became a problem as threads became more embedded upon one another as more people replied to another's post. Thus the posting in chronological order was introduced and proved more effective to other users as the web apps of internet forums were created. Threaded discussions in community forums might actually create stress on the database as it has to create more joins just to get to the "latest reply" of a thread especially when its spammed by certain forum members. Comparatively to a regular non-hierachy thread, it just goes to the last message posted with only 1 hop in the database. Imagine rhyen quoting every single person in a thread (which is what he is doing now) its actually creating sub threads for every single post he's making. To actually read his post and all future posts below it may cause unnecessary database overhead. (Maybe this is why the server is crashing lately?)



That said, a threaded discussion may only be applicable in tech forums and usenet but not in a community forum where some members tend to SPAM. *hint hint*



Newsgroup



Forum (there's a forum netiquette section about spamming and multiposting that some members should probably read =P )



 



Quote



In fact, if u design a forum system without thread hierachy it meant you are not maintaining database integrity, one of the must-not-break rules of RDMS. But then a lot of PHP dudes are such undisciplined programmers.. in fact I won't call them programmers as they've not actually understood what "programming" is. They are actually "code writers" someone who put together a few programming codes.



Hence lacking the flexibility of users to edit their posts as well as delete double/multiple posts which is needed. There is no need for "integrity". Again this is a case of simplicity and funtionality. It has nothing to do with PHP vs ASP programmers. ASP can do the same thing....just that this board isn't doing it.



Quote



This is the reason PHP systems break then when put under stress- or load-test as they lack the basic architecture to support those load. It's a bit like how our Boleh-land engineers built houses.... very fast, very cheap but undercut corners everywhere.... unlike EU where they need to conform to certain specifications/standards etc.





Lowyat.net which is Malaysia's largest community forum, uses invision powerboard, one of the most highly acclaimed commercial PHP boards in the market. These are the board statistics as of 10:28pm today.



Quote



1656 user(s) active in the past 15 minutes
Our members have made a total of 3,758,955 posts
We have 104,749 registered members



And it has yet to break down. Only time its down is during scheduled maintenance.



Compared to our BGC:



Quote


There are 1 guest(s) online. There are 2 of 317 member(s) online - wolfx, jack208


317 users have contributed to 7,647 threads and 9,374 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 0 new thread(s), 76 new post(s), and 0 new user(s).


 


And still it breaks down so often, about twice a week. I rest my case. [:p]

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Offline jack208

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« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2007, 08:18:18 pm »
[quote user="wolfx"]Buuu buuuu....wrong. A forum can actually be hierachy based or chronologically based. But nowadays its all chronologically based.

Newsgroups were hierachy based because of Usenet. It kept track of threads and sub-threads and how 1 person replied to the other. This later became a problem as threads became more embedded upon one another as more people replied to another's post. Thus the posting in chronological order was introduced and proved more effective to other users as the web apps of internet forums were created. [/quote]



Talking to you reminds me of talking to programmers who are just plain stubborn and dogmatic and cannot see anything beyond their tunnel vision. Not all are, though.



I said the design of both newsgroup and forum are essentially the same. I did not say Forum and Newsgroup are the same [duh]. Show me the underlying design of two world-class forum and newsgroup and if they are not essentially the same (ie with referential links being one common item) then I'll rest my case.



True, forums are usually flat and newsgroup are usually heirarchy but thats USAGE (or in IT-speak, "the application of a design") and not design. Have you ever design a forum or newsgroup? If not, arguing further is moot. And for clarity sake, I'm asking "have you designed", not "have you used"; the key word here is "design" vs "use".



Any database RDBMS that does not have links are not properly designed. Yes you can design a db without links but how do you maintain integrity? Do you even know Codd's 12 Laws of RDMS. If not, I might as well argue with the wall.



Again, show me a Tier-1 application (and pls dun quote me freebies like PHP forums) eg SAP, Axapta, Oracle Financials, Peoplesoft - that does not have referential integrity and I'll again rest my case.



[quote user="wolfx"]It has nothing to do with PHP vs ASP programmers. ASP can do the same thing....just that this board isn't doing it.[/quote]



Fact: If a programmer can enforce referential integrity and choose to do so, he's a discipline programmer.



Fact: If a programmer can enforce referential integrity but chooses not to do so, he's an indiscipline programmer.



[quote user="wolfx"]To actually read his post and all future posts below it may cause unnecessary database overhead. [/quote]



If an appl is stressed due to referential links, it is becoz the database engine is NOT GOOD enuff la. Do you ever see an Oracle or DB2 or MSSQL database stressed? No but do you also realise that all these Tier-1 db has referential integrity as one of their key features?



Which db will stress if you use too many links? Well, MS Access is one (and that's a Microsoft product in case you wanna argue I'm 100% pro-MS). Foxpro is another and obviously MySQL is the other.



Most PHP apps are built on MySQL and do you know the MySQL database itself does not even have referential integrity feature? It cannot even be called a "relational database". Even now, it's so-called support for RI is not fully RI.



Note: However MySQL now has an Enterprise Ed that comes with referential integrity.



[quote user="wolfx"]Hence lacking the flexibility of users to edit their posts as well as delete double/multiple posts which is needed.[/quote]



Again, programmer [arghh]. You jumped to a conclusion without even finding out the source of the problem. here you implied the problems above are due to stress caused by links. Goodness, doesn't ppl apply logical analytic thinking to flush out problems anymore?



The above problems could very well be caused by bugs ie badly-written programs; which is what it is (I think).



In fact, if u actually know how referential integrity is designed into a forum or newsgroup software, you wouldn't even have made that stmt. Becoz all a new post needs is to reference back its parent post and integrity is maintained.



To display the thread in flat or heirarchical structure then is merely the application sending a different query and formatting the look-n-feel differently. Your discourse on making 1 hop vs many hops, rhyen post linking everyone and creating subthreads is making me LMAO.



[quote user="wolfx"]There is no need for "integrity". Again this is a case of simplicity and funtionality. It has nothing to do with PHP vs ASP programmers. ASP can do the same thing....just that this board isn't doing it.[/quote]



If you can say there's no need for integrity, I can rest my case fully on the "indisciplined programmer" argument. I dare you, come with me to a programmers convention - does not have to be Microsoft, can be Java or C+ groups - and bring up your point of "no need for integrity" and see how you'll get savaged.



It's not a case for simplicity vs functionality. Integrity is not about simplicity. It's about... well, integrity. If adding referential integrity kills the app, then it's the database that's the problem. If you are using PHP database, I agree... perhaps you shud not have integrity links to avoid such problems but if your backend is any of the high-end dbs such as Oracle, MSSQL and DB2, you need not worry about integrity killing your apps.



If you actually understand how a db structures its integrity tables and its search algorithm, you'll then und why integrity never kills an app. Rather than applying a layman's view to understand referential integrity.



[quote user="wolfx"]Lowyat.net which is Malaysia's largest community forum, uses invision powerboard, one of the most highly acclaimed commercial PHP boards in the market. These are the board statistics as of 10:28pm today.



And it has yet to break down. Only time its down is during scheduled maintenance.[/quote]



Er.. what does this prove? Again pls apply some logical thinking to your argument instead of emotional lashing. Are you trying to prove Powerboard is better designed than CommunityServer or are you saying Powerboard is more stable than CommunityServer?



The only thing I think your stmt above (Powerboard vs CommunityServer) proves is that Powerboard is a very matured and stable forum software and can support large number of users. While CommunityServer is a new, growing and yet-to-be-stable community software that encompass a forum, a gallery, a file, skinning, blog that still contains many bugs that make it perform less than satisfactory.



So CommunityServer breaks down more than Powerboard. Yes unfortunately it does. If you are resting your case becoz you think Powerboard is much more stable than CommunityServer, then yes you may do so coz even I agree with you. But that's like saying we shud be using a bicycle instead of a car, coz a bicycle is so much more stable than a car. Have you ever seen bicycle breaking down btw?



Er, your point again?

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Offline wolfx

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« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2007, 06:55:05 am »

[quote user="jack208"]



Talking to you reminds me of talking to programmers who are just plain stubborn and dogmatic and cannot see anything beyond their tunnel vision. Not all are, though.



[/quote]



So much for objective and constructive criticsm. [co] I like the smell of napalm in the morning. [arghh][pain]



Well since you started it, you're the one who seems to be talking alot about integrity and throwing out technical jargon, you seem to be the old programmers who don't wanna change with the times, stuck in the old days of database design.



Quote



I said the design of both newsgroup and forum are essentially the same. I did not say Forum and Newsgroup are the same [duh]. Show me the underlying design of two world-class forum and newsgroup and if they are not essentially the same (ie with referential links being one common item) then I'll rest my case.





Define same. They are in no way same, not even at the database level. And by that I don't mean referential database VS non-referential database. Please read the wiki links i provided.



Quote



True, forums are usually flat and newsgroup are usually heirarchy but thats USAGE (or in IT-speak, "the application of a design") and not design. Have you ever design a forum or newsgroup? If not, arguing further is moot. And for clarity sake, I'm asking "have you designed", not "have you used"; the key word here is "design" vs "use".





I have set up PHP boards as well as ASP boards. So yes I have designed them before, but only at a very high level. These days forum applications are so easy to install that you don't even need to go into the gritty of it.



Quote



Any database RDBMS that does not have links are not properly designed. Yes you can design a db without links but how do you maintain integrity? Do you even know Codd's 12 Laws of RDMS. If not, I might as well argue with the wall.





I think you are confused with the point of my argument.



I did not say that a database should not have links nor should it have not have integrity at all. That would be silly to state and even impossible by today's standards as all data is referential one way or other even if you don't want it to. What I was arguing about was this board's redundant use of a hierachy based posting system. You stated that this is necessary to keep the post integrity. My argument was "What for have post integrity? Its redundant since we have the almighty quote box, and it introduces problems stated by CE about deleting/editing posts". I think your argument has went out of scope.



Quote



Again, show me a Tier-1 application (and pls dun quote me freebies like PHP forums) eg SAP, Axapta, Oracle Financials, Peoplesoft - that does not have referential integrity and I'll again rest my case.





Doh....i deal with enterprise solutions like SAP, JDE and Siebel. I'm  not a n00b. And as I said, your argument is out of scope.



Quote



Fact: If a programmer can enforce referential integrity and choose to do so, he's a discipline programmer.



Fact: If a programmer can enforce referential integrity but chooses not to do so, he's an indiscipline programmer.





Hmmm ok sure. Why don't I enforce referential integrity for every letter you type, it ties back to a word spelling algorithm unique to each user so that for every word you type, I know you are the one who typed it because it directly relates to you and how you spell the word. So by the end of the day, I know who in a forum spells "tomato" like "tomatoe" or "tamato". I can enforce mah? No problem rite? So should I just do it? 



Just think of the stupid overhead it will cause to the database just to implement this pointless referencing. Every word you type in a post will be related back to the poster. So silly. So many table jumps and transaction table entries will be created just to track something not fundamentally important. Sure I can do it. But what for? Integrity? This is integrity to the max mah rite? 



Thus this is what I meant at simplicity of design and usability. So back to my point, there's no point to enforce a hierachical posting system just for the sole sake of integrity in a forum. I didn't say there shouldn't be a relational database behind this forum. Sheesh. [arghh]



Quote



If an appl is stressed due to referential links, it is becoz the database engine is NOT GOOD enuff la. Do you ever see an Oracle or DB2 or MSSQL database stressed? No but do you also realise that all these Tier-1 db has referential integrity as one of their key features?





So are you trying to say Oracle, DB2 and MSSQL database will never be stressed? What if I told you I have? And why so you ask?  Because some programmer was too smart storing redundant transaction tables that could grow up till almost a million records a day, with nested references to god knows how many other related records. We fixed the problem by removing the silly redundant process. When we were done with it, only a thousand of records on the transaction table were created.



That said, a programmer must always think of the volume of data and the records that will be created. Then with the data, how many hops must a user make to get to the data he wants. The lesser the better.



Quote
 



Which db will stress if you use too many links? Well, MS Access is one (and that's a Microsoft product in case you wanna argue I'm 100% pro-MS). Foxpro is another and obviously MySQL is the other.



Most PHP apps are built on MySQL and do you know the MySQL database itself does not even have referential integrity feature? It cannot even be called a "relational database". Even now, it's so-called support for RI is not fully RI.



Note: However MySQL now has an Enterprise Ed that comes with referential integrity.





I think from my experience, no database is full proof. A database should not have too many hops for a user to get to a piece of data, that's the fundamental rule to database design. It all depends on alot of factors like data volume, no. of hops, as well as query code.



Quote



Again, programmer [arghh]. You jumped to a conclusion without even finding out the source of the problem. here you implied the problems above are due to stress caused by links. Goodness, doesn't ppl apply logical analytic thinking to flush out problems anymore?





I never said that the multiple posts and undeletetable posts to be the ones causing stress. Read what i quote and what I replied. I mentioned the multiple posts and undeletetable posts because I wanted to point out that its this hierarchy based posting that's causing this, and its redundant.



 It would be logical to conclude though that the hierachy based posting might cause un-needed stress on the system. Let me illustrate with an example.



OTK Gaming Thread +



Jeff: Who's onz for OTK Gaming? +



                                                     | Henry: Me! +



                                                                         | Heng: Me too!! +



                                                                                                    | Ken: Me three!! +



On the example above, due to people replying to the latest post, me as the 3rd poster would have to go through 3 inner joins just to reach the latest message which is by Ken. Of course 3 innerjoins is inconsequential to the database. But imagine a big thread like the real OTK thread with multiple posts and replies. Can you draw the hierachy of that thread in a graphical format? I think not. Just to get to the "November 2nd Subang SS15 gaming" part, I probably have to get through 1000++ innerjoins just to get there and it will continue to grow exponentially!



In contrast, flat posting system is based on time, so it looks like this.



OTK Gaming Thread +



Jeff: Who's onz for OTK Gaming? +



Henry: Me! +



Heng: Me too!! +



Ken: Me three!! +



And how many hops do I have to make to get to the latest post? 1. And 1 million posts later, how many hops do I have to make to get to the "November 2nd Subang SS15 gaming" post? Just 1, which is from the main post, "OTK Gaming Thread". So logically which do you think causes more overhead to the system?



Bear in mind I didn't say this WILL cause stress to the database. Its just a logical conclusion.



Quote



The above problems could very well be caused by bugs ie badly-written programs; which is what it is (I think).



In fact, if u actually know how referential integrity is designed into a forum or newsgroup software, you wouldn't even have made that stmt. Becoz all a new post needs is to reference back its parent post and integrity is maintained.





Hence the overhead. What if all posts only need to reference the 1st post? Edit, delete, etc. No problem.



Quote



To display the thread in flat or heirarchical structure then is merely the application sending a different query and formatting the look-n-feel differently. Your discourse on making 1 hop vs many hops, rhyen post linking everyone and creating subthreads is making me LMAO.





Refer to my above example. How can you present the data in the 1s diagram if hirachical posting is not enabled? The way the data is stored is also different. Its not about different query and look-and-feel. Because if it truly is look and feel, then why can't I delete my posts that I have made before? Because there are child posts under it right? That in itself tells you even the DB structure is different. LMAO back at yourself.



Quote



If you can say there's no need for integrity, I can rest my case fully on the "indisciplined programmer" argument. I dare you, come with me to a programmers convention - does not have to be Microsoft, can be Java or C+ groups - and bring up your point of "no need for integrity" and see how you'll get savaged.



It's not a case for simplicity vs functionality. Integrity is not about simplicity. It's about... well, integrity. If adding referential integrity kills the app, then it's the database that's the problem. If you are using PHP database, I agree... perhaps you shud not have integrity links to avoid such problems but if your backend is any of the high-end dbs such as Oracle, MSSQL and DB2, you need not worry about integrity killing your apps.





Refer to my above example of referencing how every user in a forum spells a word. There's no such thing as a DB that will not crash.



Its not about discipline or not. Its about functionality. Do you call a kungfu master who sleeps whole day meditating about Nirvana disciplined? Oh sure. But what are the other kungfu masters doing? Fighting the evil overlord to bring peace on earth. Which one is more functional, might I ask you?



If you wanna call people of the world stupid and only you as smart, then you can't see how google is so successful with their secret search algorithms or how they can provide you 5 gigs free email. Do you think they have physically enough hard disk space to store all the emails of its gmail users? Think again.



I think right now you're just stubbornly defending your community board despite real world examples everywhere. In fact I provided you links to examples but all you can spout is marketing "Perfect World Scenario" crap.



Quote



If you actually understand how a db structures its integrity tables and its search algorithm, you'll then und why integrity never kills an app. Rather than applying a layman's view to understand referential integrity.





I may not understand it like a professor, but through experience and studies, I know enough that integrity adds overhead to a database. Its a matter of making the right judgement on what integrity needs to be kept (like do you need to keep the integrity of how each person spells a word?) and what shouldn't.



Quote



Er.. what does this prove? Again pls apply some logical thinking to your argument instead of emotional lashing. Are you trying to prove Powerboard is better designed than CommunityServer or are you saying Powerboard is more stable than CommunityServer?



The only thing I think your stmt above (Powerboard vs CommunityServer) proves is that Powerboard is a very matured and stable forum software and can support large number of users. While CommunityServer is a new, growing and yet-to-be-stable community software that encompass a forum, a gallery, a file, skinning, blog that still contains many bugs that make it perform less than satisfactory.





My point was to counter your point that PHP boards are unstable compared to ASP boards. I proved to you a board that is PHP based and very much stable and has more user volume than BGC, which is ASP based and crashes alot despite very small number of users. That's all.



Quote



So CommunityServer breaks down more than Powerboard. Yes unfortunately it does. If you are resting your case becoz you think Powerboard is much more stable than CommunityServer, then yes you may do so coz even I agree with you. But that's like saying we shud be using a bicycle instead of a car, coz a bicycle is so much more stable than a car. Have you ever seen bicycle breaking down btw?





So you wanna fall back to "Community Server is a space shuttle flying to penang, when you can use Air Asia instead "analogy? Then I have nothing to say. Redundancy is the key word here, another basic database rule, to reduce data redundancy.


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Offline jack208

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« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2007, 07:16:08 am »
[quote user="wolfx"]It would be logical to conclude though that the hierachy based posting might cause un-needed stress on the system. Let me illustrate with an example.

OTK Gaming Thread +



Jeff: Who's onz for OTK Gaming? +



                                                     | Henry: Me! +



                                                                         | Heng: Me too!! +



                                                                                                    | Ken: Me three!! +



On the example above, due to people replying to the latest post, me as the 3rd poster would have to go through 3 inner joins just to reach the latest message which is by Ken. Of course 3 innerjoins is inconsequential to the database. But imagine a big thread like the real OTK thread with multiple posts and replies. Can you draw the hierachy of that thread in a graphical format? I think not. Just to get to the "November 2nd Subang SS15 gaming" part, I probably have to get through 1000++ innerjoins just to get there and it will continue to grow exponentially!



In contrast, flat posting system is based on time, so it looks like this.



OTK Gaming Thread +



Jeff: Who's onz for OTK Gaming? +



Henry: Me! +



Heng: Me too!! +



Ken: Me three!! +



And how many hops do I have to make to get to the latest post? 1. And 1 million posts later, how many hops do I have to make to get to the "November 2nd Subang SS15 gaming" post? Just 1, which is from the main post, "OTK Gaming Thread". So logically which do you think causes more overhead to the system?[/quote]



If this is THE example you can give, then there's no point to discuss further coz it's plain obvious programming (and I mean actual programming not some script writing with ERP apps) is not something you do.



Concepts of encapsulation, inheritance and data-persentation independence will all be lost on you.



If the design of your hierarchy forum (ie the first one) requires a poster to do 3 hops in order to reach your message.. then my dear fren, the problem lies in the programming technique itself and not in the language or database.



In my book, both examples both need ONLY one hop (and not even an inner-join, do you even know what's an innerjoin?) to reply, to delete, to edit, and to display. That's a database issue.



However whether the programmer chooses to display it as a flat or heirarchy forum is a presentation issue. What I'm saying is the same database structure can support BOTH types of forums and the same query will fetch both results (regardless of whether it's 3 posts or 1,000 posts deep).



However a different presentation code is needed to present it in a) hierarchy structure (ie your newsgroup), and b) flat structure (ie your forum).



Show me how your design requires THREE INNER JOINS to pick up the 3rd post in the 1st example and how your design requires ONE INNER JOIN to pick up the same post in the 2nd example??!! And I'll show you a SINGLE DESIGN that caters for both, a design that complies with Codd's 12 Rules (if you dunno the rules, just say dunno... dun say the rules are old-school).

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Offline wolfx

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« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2007, 08:10:28 am »
[quote user="jack208"]If this is THE example you can give, then there's no point to discuss further coz it's plain obvious programming (and I mean actual programming not some script writing with ERP apps) is not something you do.

Concepts of encapsulation, inheritance and data-persentation independence will all be lost on you.



[/quote]



If your board is created with an object oriented programming code and can handle encapsulation and inheritance in the 1s place, then maybe you have a point. But sadly its not. So your point is shot down. If the forum is using ASP.net or JAVA then its a whole different ball game, but then again, people always complain that they are both slow like hell. I experienced Java 1st hand and I don't like it one bit.



Quote



If the design of your hierarchy forum (ie the first one) requires a poster to do 3 hops in order to reach your message.. then my dear fren, the problem lies in the programming technique itself and not in the language or database.



In my book, both examples both need ONLY one hop (and not even an inner-join, do you even know what's an innerjoin?) to reply, to delete, to edit, and to display. That's a database issue.





Dude. To show the posts, the ASP application has to query the database to retrieve the data for the posts. Based on my example above, to do said query, I will have to query the foreign key of 3 different posts to get to the related latest post, hence the INNERJOINS. Do you even know how your forum works?



I am assuming that the program is perfect....so we're totally talking database now.



Quote



However whether the programmer chooses to display it as a flat or heirarchy forum is a presentation issue. What I'm saying is the same database structure can support BOTH types of forums and the same query will fetch both results (regardless of whether it's 3 posts or 1,000 posts deep).



However a different presentation code is needed to present it in a) hierarchy structure (ie your newsgroup), and b) flat structure (ie your forum).





If its purely presentation, why can't i delete posts that have been replied to? This should not be a problem if its merely a presentation issue. Its definately something underlying in the data structure.



Quote



Show me how your design requires THREE INNER JOINS to pick up the 3rd post in the 1st example and how your design requires ONE INNER JOIN to pick up the same post in the 2nd example??!! And I'll show you a SINGLE DESIGN that caters for both, a design that complies with Codd's 12 Rules (if you dunno the rules, just say dunno... dun say the rules are old-school).





I frankly never study Codd's in uni but wiki-ed it and its basically the same old stuff I already read. Show you design? How to show you? You show me yours 1st ler. Your board is not even OOP (Object Oriented Programming, not Out Of Production) and you wanna throw OOP concepts at me. Piiii la you.


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Offline jack208

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« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2007, 09:00:14 am »

[rotfl] When you make too many assumptions, you make an a.s.s. out of you and me.



1. The Community Server system is designed as a pure OOP application and written on the ASP.Net using C#. In fact, it incorporates many forward-looking design patterns as the developer/founder was formerly one of the key members of Microsoft's ASP.Net team (I think he was the team lead in some modules).



2. Java is slow only becoz the programmers who were working on Enterprise Java are indiscipline and did not have the proper foundation on programming, in particular OO concepts (prob some ex-PHP dudes). The same applies for ASP.Net.



In short, if you let me drive the Ferrari FI car, I'll still end up last in a race. Becoz the Ferrari FI car is slow? Nope, becoz I'm simply a lousy Formula One driver.



However done properly both Java and ASP.Net have no performance issues, and in fact highly scalable. Again, Microsoft lovers are usu. anti-Java but here I'm defending Java simply to correct a very wrong misconcept. Both Java and ASP.Net are strong programming foundation and I'll say one is not better than the other. If you want to find fault with MS here, it would be that they actually "copied" the concept from Java and did not invent something new, unlike Sun whom actually did a lot of groundbreaking work in coming out with Java. So credit where credit is due.



btw Java and ASP.Net are the two prominent development platform in the new school of programming. PHP is ugh... like well, as you said, "old school".



3. You are assuming the program is perfect, and the problem is the database? Dude, you have not even installed or implemented this application before, and neither have you maintained this application before... you have not even seen its database schema or its object classes nor any of its program codes. Yet you can make such inferences. Brilliant! [clapclap]



4. You did not study Codd but you simply wiki-ed it and then make assumptions about Codd and claimed it's old stuff? Oh... [clapclap] [clapclap]



5. Without even looking at the underlying code, but just from using the application you can know whether my board is OOP or not?!! Wah... even those programming gurus cannot do this wor.. you must be very kheng! [bowgod]



Note: Anyone who knows their ASP/ASP.Net stuff would know from the URL where it calls an "aspx" page that this is ASP.Net program (and not ASP). However even knowing it is written on ASP.Net does not automatically imply it is OOP or otherwise. You'll still have to look at the application architecture before you can say for sure.



[quote user="wolfx"]Dude. To show the posts, the ASP application has to query the database to retrieve the data for the posts. Based on my example above, to do said query, I will have to query the foreign key of 3 different posts to get to the related latest post, hence the INNERJOINS. Do you even know how your forum works?[/quote]



Oh.. I dun know actually how my forum works but you do? wow! [bowgod]



I'll still be waiting to see how your design needs to query foreign key of 3 different posts just to get the related latest post. That's most interesting thing I wanna learn from you. Or you can of course just cite "How to show you design?" and run away from it. [:p]



[quote user="wolfx"]If its purely presentation, why can't i delete posts that have been replied to? This should not be a problem if its merely a presentation issue. Its definately something underlying in the data structure.[/quote]



I'll answer in my "design" post later why you cannot delete your post. It's a functional issue. And how do you link it to presentation vs database, I've no idea. It's just the way CommunityServer implemented it vs say other forum apps.



[quote user="wolfx"]Show you design? How to show you? You show me yours 1st ler. [/quote]



Of course I'll show you mine (in a separate Show Me Your Design post). I dun simply open my mouth and then cannot back up or support my own words.



[quote user="wolfx"]Your board is not even OOP (Object Oriented Programming, not Out Of Production) and you wanna throw OOP concepts at me. [/quote]



Did you also just wiki-ed OOP ar? [:P]

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Offline Champion Eternal

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« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2007, 11:13:54 am »
To the rest of the guys: INCOMING!
Ooooops! Too late!
And I didn't even had time to put my flame-proof undies on.[hotsun]